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[Music]

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in the 1930s president franklin dylan

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roosevelt destination through a series

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of radio broadcasts known as the

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fireside chats

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his aim was to reassure the common man

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that our society would recover from its

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for a new era of worldly frustration we

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offer a fresh conversation i'm greg

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how's it going higher side chatters i'm

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greg carl wood and it's another lovely

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sunny san diego day a wonderful day in

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the neighborhood a wonderful day for a

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neighbor

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perfect for smoking weed and drinking

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beers which is what i'm doing because i

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show patterns of self-destructive

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behavior

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and that's just my style

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in fact i don't usually tell personal

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stories much on thc but earlier in the

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week i was having a particularly bad day

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and i said to my lovely lady theresa

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that all i needed now was a run with the

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cops

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to top off my string of [\h__\h] luck and

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she would tell you that i manifested

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that reality with those words but i

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would tell you that's an interesting

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idea but cops are pretty reliable for

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[\h__\h] up my life and what made this

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stop particularly interesting and maybe

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the universe does have a message for me

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with this one but on my drive home from

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work i see a car pulled over on the

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shoulder up ahead i instantly slow down

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to the speed limit i get closer i see

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that it is in fact a cop his car door is

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open he's walking around the car no big

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deal as i pass him

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he's just about to sit in the driver's

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seat and we [\h__\h] lock eyes and i

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instantly had the feeling of oh [\h__\h]

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this guy's definitely gunning for me i'm

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kind of [\h__\h]

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and sure enough he pulls me over and i

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had no idea what he could possibly have

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on me i was completely shocked

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[\h__\h] walks up to my window says

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he clocked me at 81 i said that's not

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possible i wasn't speeding and i don't

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think he could have clocked me from

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outside the car well he doesn't like my

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lip so he tells me to sit on my hands on

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the side of the road while he searches

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my car but he didn't find anything

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this is a fairly typical stop but it

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just pissed me off because he did not

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clock me for speeding but he wanted to

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stop me because i looked at him and he

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just threw out a reasonable number and

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wrote me a [\h__\h] ticket well

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what the [\h__\h] this is not a place i want

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to live anymore people

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but anyway today on the show we got nick

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redfern

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and it's a little rapid fire because i

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was supposed to

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be joined by adam go rightly and ron

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patton from paranoia magazine to talk

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about paranoiacon but neither one could

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make it at the last minute so my

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planning was a little light because i

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expected two other people to be chiming

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in

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but either way there's a bunch of great

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stories in nick's new book and we're

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gonna fire them off at you right after i

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let you know about my main man plaid

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klaus who's making some awesome comics

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they focus on stories that evolve from

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conspiracy theories science fiction and

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travels into the multiverse through

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psychedelic exploration you can check

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out the latest title off grid the story

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of the civil war between a technocratic

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enslaving government and a resistance

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group of ex-military and anonymous

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hackers fighting for their survival

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off-grid i believe they're still

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offering the first issue free

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and they're really cheap otherwise so

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check them out they have a very awesome

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style

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plaid klaus is actually working on a

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couple of conspiracies designs that i'm

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really pumped about i don't know when

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i'll actually be able to print them so

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far the first one looks great and i'm

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pumped about it it's a reptilian shirt

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yo there i said it okay so either way go

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explore the outer reaches your mind at

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minecomics.com plaid k also gave me a

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coupon code this week to give to you so

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please if you're going over there and

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you're checking out stuff off grid issue

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number one is totally free then use the

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code thc to get 20 percent off anything

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else you like and the comics are so damn

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good and they're only like two dollars

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support thc by supporting the people who

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support it

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finally i'm going to ask you to support

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thc by picking up one of my badass

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shirts at conspiracies.net that's my

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other little project that helps pay the

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rent so here's that noise and nick

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redfern will be on the other side i

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love you

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we're here because we don't buy into the

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[\h__\h] of mainstream culture we're

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tired of the mundane passionless careers

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we've been shuffled into as a result of

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this orchestrated dead based system of

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rule and the stranglehold on education

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entertainment by cold soulless

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corporations

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people yes we are frustrated yes we are

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tired

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and we reject the free approved

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tranquilizers that are monday night

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football and an ice cold budweiser but

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we have to stop hiding stop hiding

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behind the headphones in the cherry

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popper 420 username

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let the world see that the resistance is

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strong and society is changing it was a

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time to be anonymous that time has

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passed

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and so the higher side chats would like

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to present conspiracies as the dawning

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of this new paradigm in the uniform of

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the revolution

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because bold fashion should mean more

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than some celebrity meat dresser frappe

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and a silly pink polo

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conspiracy's redefines bold fashion as

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having the balls to project socially

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uncomfortable and unpopular truths from

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your radiant chest all [\h__\h] day

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conspiratees.net

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let them know that you know bold designs

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all right welcome back people you know

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the world is filled with weirdness and

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some of my favorite stories are the

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tales of anomalous cryptids running

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around out there giant sea monsters

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bigfoot the mothman the list goes on and

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on and our guest today nick redfern is

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no stranger to ufo conspiracy and

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cryptozoology research he's been peeking

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behind the curtain for almost 20 years

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now he's written many great books

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including the nasa conspiracies the real

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men in black and body snatchers in the

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desert and his new book monster files a

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look inside government secrets and

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classified documents on bizarre

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creatures and extraordinary animals is

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no different where the weirdness flows

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is where the red fern goes and

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completing the circuit and his third

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appearance in the show creating a

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trifecta of awesomeness and the holy

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trinity that the good book describes

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here he is nick redfearn how are you hey

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greg doing good thanks how's it going

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it's going well man uh couldn't be

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better you know the first time we talked

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it was sort of uh an overview of a lot

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of your work but i think the biggest

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focus was the pyramid in the pentagon on

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episode 25 which is a great book about

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government files pertaining to seeking

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out of ancient relics noah's ark similar

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things like that

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and uh it was awesome because it showed

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that the government has taken something

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seriously that would probably surprise a

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lot of people which is sort of the same

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case on a different subject in monster

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files right yeah well monster files is

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probably on my most sort of favorite

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subject an area of investigation that's

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cryptozoology which is the study of

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unknown animals like bigfoot loch ness

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monster the chupacabra abominable

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snowman

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sea serpents and so on um and i've

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written about seven or eight books over

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the years on various aspects of

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cryptozoology most of the books sort of

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written in sort of diary road trip style

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just following me on the expeditions but

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monster files is sort of significantly

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different because it deals with an

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aspect of cryptozoology that

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not only does it not get really much

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coverage but most people probably aren't

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even aware it exists and that is um the

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way in which and how and for how long

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government agencies all around the world

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have secretly taken an interest in

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strange creatures and

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put together files on them investigated

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and in some cases in weird fashion even

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created them as well

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yeah you know it's funny you mentioned

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creating them because the one one i

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really liked mainly because it might

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have cracked the case on it was the

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flatwoods monster you know which i

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always thought was one of the most

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unique creatures out there that people

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would describe seeing but i mean you

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want to start off with that story and

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the connection you made to maybe a

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practical answer yeah sure well the

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flatwoods monster um it's a creature

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that uh goes back to september 1952

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and the little town of flatwoods in west

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virginia and i say little town because

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even today the population is still only

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in the 400s and back in 52 when this

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occurred it was just in the 300s you

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know so i hadn't really grown much at

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all it's sort of a very rural uh sort of

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wooded you know farm type area and um

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throughout this summer in the late

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summer of 1952

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there was a huge wave of ufo activity

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all across the united states

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and

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one of the the strangest events occurred

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in flatwoods in september

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and a number of the people in the town

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reported after the sun was going down

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you know the darkness was setting in

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they saw this strange object sort of

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shoot across the sky and it seemed to

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land or come down at least um in a large

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area which was sort of dominated by sort

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of a mountainous hill and and forestland

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and a number of the townsfolk went out

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there to try and figure out what it was

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and they came across this sort of

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strange eerie fog

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um

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and heard strange noises coming out of

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the woods and

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unusual illumination in the background

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so clearly something strange was going

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on but that was sort of made even

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more strange and i guess frightening for

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the people because this huge thing came

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clambering or lumbering out of the woods

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and it was described as being about 12

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feet tall but unlike you know like a

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hairy bigfoot creature or something like

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that it was described as being like a

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mechanical monster in some fashion which

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kind of sounds bizarre but it sort of

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befits that period of the 1950s you know

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when you had all those weird time movies

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coming out with rubber things but it was

276
00:10:02,870 --> 00:09:59,760
described as being about as i said about

277
00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:02,880
12 feet tall humanoid they had all these

278
00:10:07,750 --> 00:10:05,600
weird flashes and sparks and banks

279
00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:07,760
coming off it that you know gave it a

280
00:10:12,630 --> 00:10:10,240
monstrous angle but a robotic angle as

281
00:10:16,630 --> 00:10:12,640
well that's surprisingly everybody sort

282
00:10:19,750 --> 00:10:16,640
of fled for their lives down the hill um

283
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:21,990
almost like a unique creature that

284
00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:23,760
didn't surface before and never surfaced

285
00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:25,120
afterwards even

286
00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:27,600
um and one of the things i was doing

287
00:10:31,670 --> 00:10:30,399
research on in the book this whole angle

288
00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:31,680
but actually for other chapters in the

289
00:10:37,269 --> 00:10:34,560
book on how government agencies had used

290
00:10:41,350 --> 00:10:37,279
psychological warfare programs to create

291
00:10:43,829 --> 00:10:41,360
myths of monsters to fight the enemy and

292
00:10:45,430 --> 00:10:43,839
in doing this i got hold of a rand

293
00:10:47,990 --> 00:10:45,440
document which had been prepared for the

294
00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:48,000
u.s air force in 1950

295
00:10:52,389 --> 00:10:50,160
was a document that talked about how

296
00:10:55,190 --> 00:10:52,399
rand had prepared all this data for the

297
00:10:57,430 --> 00:10:55,200
us air force on how psychological

298
00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:57,440
warfare could be used

299
00:11:01,750 --> 00:10:59,279
from the perspective of using mythology

300
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:01,760
and folklore to defeat enemies rather

301
00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:03,600
than you know just guns and missiles or

302
00:11:08,069 --> 00:11:06,160
whatever yeah and in this particular

303
00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:08,079
file there's a reference to how

304
00:11:13,110 --> 00:11:10,560
during the second world war the british

305
00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:13,120
army created this thing that sounds

306
00:11:16,630 --> 00:11:14,800
eerily light the flatwoods monster it

307
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:16,640
was described as being exactly the same

308
00:11:20,870 --> 00:11:19,360
height 12 feet tall and it was like a

309
00:11:24,310 --> 00:11:20,880
robotic thing

310
00:11:25,829 --> 00:11:24,320
that had all these wires and lights um

311
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:25,839
all over it which could be sort of lit

312
00:11:30,790 --> 00:11:28,399
up and you know sparks and arcs coming

313
00:11:33,190 --> 00:11:30,800
off it to give it sort of this effect of

314
00:11:35,269 --> 00:11:33,200
something sort of monstrous if you like

315
00:11:37,910 --> 00:11:35,279
and what the british army did they sort

316
00:11:41,269 --> 00:11:37,920
of unleashed it in and around the

317
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:41,279
fringes of little towns um in italy you

318
00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:42,959
know but during the second world war the

319
00:11:47,590 --> 00:11:44,720
italians were helping the germans and so

320
00:11:49,910 --> 00:11:47,600
the idea was they sort of briefly

321
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:49,920
released this thing or sort of towed it

322
00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:51,839
or you know sort of remotely controlled

323
00:11:54,949 --> 00:11:52,560
it

324
00:11:56,790 --> 00:11:54,959
and the plan was then to

325
00:11:59,110 --> 00:11:56,800
sort of tell the villagers well this is

326
00:12:02,470 --> 00:11:59,120
like a visit from you know some sort of

327
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:02,480
satanic creature um basically you know

328
00:12:06,389 --> 00:12:04,880
cursing you for helping the germans and

329
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:06,399
you know a lot of these isolated little

330
00:12:13,110 --> 00:12:09,519
italian villages it worked now of course

331
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:13,120
during the 1950s 1952 there were no

332
00:12:17,110 --> 00:12:15,120
italian or german spies running around

333
00:12:20,310 --> 00:12:17,120
flatwood so you know you have to wonder

334
00:12:22,949 --> 00:12:20,320
what's the motivation um if you know

335
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:22,959
this was an outgrowth of

336
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:25,120
the the british psychological warfare

337
00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:26,800
thing of the forties and you have to

338
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:28,560
look at these similarities as i said the

339
00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:30,720
height of the creature is the same they

340
00:12:35,269 --> 00:12:33,040
both gave off these weird sparks and

341
00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:35,279
arcs and electric static and things like

342
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:38,079
this they were both seen in little

343
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,079
isolated towns

344
00:12:45,350 --> 00:12:42,720
and the british army program was a

345
00:12:48,389 --> 00:12:45,360
psychological warfare-based one and the

346
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:48,399
reference to it turns up in a u.s air

347
00:12:53,030 --> 00:12:51,360
force psychological warfare documents

348
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:53,040
and the us air force was heavily

349
00:12:56,470 --> 00:12:54,560
interested in what people were saying

350
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:56,480
about the flatwoods case so you know you

351
00:13:02,389 --> 00:12:58,639
have all these tangents and ties

352
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:02,399
um and my speculation actually allows

353
00:13:06,870 --> 00:13:03,920
for like a real

354
00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:06,880
genuine ufo phenomenon and possibly

355
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:10,000
for manipulation using a creative thing

356
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:11,600
at flatwoods and i'll explain what i

357
00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:13,200
mean by that

358
00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:15,120
it's pretty clear when you read the

359
00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:16,480
files that have surfaced through the

360
00:13:20,389 --> 00:13:18,560
freedom of information act on

361
00:13:22,150 --> 00:13:20,399
what was going on in 52

362
00:13:23,990 --> 00:13:22,160
the elements of the military and the

363
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:24,000
intelligence community realized there

364
00:13:27,910 --> 00:13:26,240
was a year for a real ufo phenomenon

365
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:27,920
that they didn't understand

366
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:30,240
some of these documents talk about

367
00:13:33,509 --> 00:13:31,600
well how

368
00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:33,519
might the general public react in the

369
00:13:39,030 --> 00:13:37,040
event of a real ufo invasion or they

370
00:13:41,190 --> 00:13:39,040
showed themselves sort of on mass across

371
00:13:43,350 --> 00:13:41,200
the planet how will people react

372
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:43,360
well they had no way of knowing because

373
00:13:47,030 --> 00:13:45,680
the ufo phenomenon they couldn't predict

374
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:47,040
how it would act you know it's almost

375
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:48,720
like ghostly you know hear what i think

376
00:13:52,550 --> 00:13:51,360
on the next so i kind of wonder if they

377
00:13:55,350 --> 00:13:52,560
may have sort of

378
00:13:57,269 --> 00:13:55,360
set up an event in flatwoods

379
00:13:59,350 --> 00:13:57,279
to try and then secretly watch and

380
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:59,360
monitor the response to see how people

381
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:00,639
reacted

382
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,880
in because that would give them an

383
00:14:07,430 --> 00:14:04,880
ability to gauge how the reaction might

384
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:07,440
occur in a real life situation with the

385
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:09,680
phenomenon so you know in other words if

386
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:11,680
you can't predict the phenomenon

387
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:13,440
is going to appear and you can't predict

388
00:14:18,150 --> 00:14:16,240
how people react why not stage an event

389
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:18,160
because that would give you like a a

390
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:20,000
similar um

391
00:14:23,670 --> 00:14:22,079
outcome so to speak and the very fact

392
00:14:24,949 --> 00:14:23,680
that everybody at flatwoods sort of fled

393
00:14:28,389 --> 00:14:24,959
for their lives

394
00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:28,399
may well have given the military an idea

395
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:31,120
of well now we know what to expect

396
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:32,880
in the real world when it really happens

397
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,600
so

398
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:34,800
i actually think you know there is a

399
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:36,800
real phenomenon but i think at times

400
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,800
things like this have been done to try

401
00:14:42,389 --> 00:14:40,320
and determine

402
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:42,399
again you know how myths can be used and

403
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,880
what the reaction and the result is on

404
00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:47,040
the people are exposed to it

405
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:48,720
yeah i mean i thought that was really

406
00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:50,800
interesting because i'm sure you've

407
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:52,480
heard about the stories of project

408
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:54,320
bluebeam where the government has

409
00:14:59,110 --> 00:14:56,240
supposedly entertained the idea of

410
00:15:01,269 --> 00:14:59,120
creating a holographic alien invasion or

411
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:01,279
like a second coming of christ over cuba

412
00:15:04,790 --> 00:15:02,959
or something like that but i mean that

413
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:04,800
story is kind of right in the same

414
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:06,560
wheelhouse

415
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:08,560
well yeah i mean it's you know bear in

416
00:15:11,910 --> 00:15:10,079
mind we're sort of talking about 60

417
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:11,920
years ago i mean today the technology

418
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:14,160
would be much greater but what i do find

419
00:15:17,110 --> 00:15:15,360
interesting

420
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:17,120
is that both in the second world war

421
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:18,000
thing

422
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:20,480
and this one from flatwoods you know it

423
00:15:24,150 --> 00:15:22,079
was disguised like a relatively

424
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:24,160
unsophisticated

425
00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:27,199
sort of clambering sparking thing almost

426
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:29,440
you know the robot forbidden planet or

427
00:15:34,629 --> 00:15:32,480
something like that you know so you can

428
00:15:36,150 --> 00:15:34,639
imagine maybe back then they could

429
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,160
have put something like that together

430
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,399
but you know something far more

431
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,480
expansive today like sophisticated

432
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:42,160
holograms you know just just weren't

433
00:15:45,350 --> 00:15:43,519
around then

434
00:15:48,550 --> 00:15:45,360
yeah i mean if you saw that tupac thing

435
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:48,560
they've got some serious technology

436
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:50,320
but uh you know there's a couple tales

437
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:51,600
like that in monster files where

438
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:54,240
government agencies either made or hyped

439
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:56,079
up rumors of strange creatures or

440
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:59,199
vampire-like beasts but um are there any

441
00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:00,959
stories in the book that you find

442
00:16:04,550 --> 00:16:02,480
particularly interesting that lead in

443
00:16:06,550 --> 00:16:04,560
the direction of involving a real

444
00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:06,560
unknown creature

445
00:16:11,749 --> 00:16:08,720
yeah i mean for me one of the big areas

446
00:16:14,230 --> 00:16:11,759
of interest of of mine is bigfoot but

447
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:14,240
whereas most cryptozoologists just take

448
00:16:18,629 --> 00:16:16,240
the view that you know bigfoot is the

449
00:16:21,430 --> 00:16:18,639
north american equivalent of like a an

450
00:16:22,470 --> 00:16:21,440
african gorilla right i don't you know i

451
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:22,480
think there's more

452
00:16:26,550 --> 00:16:24,880
to bigfoot i think bigfoot is

453
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,560
it may well be a flesh and blood

454
00:16:31,110 --> 00:16:28,560
creature but it's far stranger than just

455
00:16:33,749 --> 00:16:31,120
an unknown ape roaming the us

456
00:16:34,550 --> 00:16:33,759
um there are a lot of cases for example

457
00:16:36,550 --> 00:16:34,560
where

458
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:36,560
bigfoot has been seen at the same time

459
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:39,839
frame and location as ufo activity

460
00:16:44,389 --> 00:16:41,920
people have recorded sort of strange

461
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:44,399
visions after seeing bigfoot or having

462
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:46,399
visits from men in black type characters

463
00:16:51,030 --> 00:16:48,240
and things like that now

464
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:51,040
certainly these cases aren't anywhere

465
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:53,040
near the the majority reports you know

466
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:55,120
but they are sort of five six seven

467
00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:56,639
eight percent of the total which is

468
00:17:02,230 --> 00:16:58,160
still a significant

469
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:02,240
amount um and so what i find interesting

470
00:17:06,230 --> 00:17:04,079
is that when we're not although we're

471
00:17:08,150 --> 00:17:06,240
not seeing government or military

472
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:08,160
interest in every bigfoot report under

473
00:17:11,429 --> 00:17:09,520
the sun

474
00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:11,439
what we are seeing is that in many of

475
00:17:15,990 --> 00:17:14,000
these cases of high strangeness

476
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:16,000
government people do pop up and take an

477
00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:17,760
interest for example

478
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:21,039
in the book i talk about um stan gordon

479
00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:23,439
a researcher who back in mid early to

480
00:17:28,549 --> 00:17:26,640
mid 70's investigated a wave of bigfoot

481
00:17:30,549 --> 00:17:28,559
type activity in pennsylvania where

482
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:30,559
standstill lives to this day

483
00:17:36,630 --> 00:17:33,840
and in these particular cases they were

484
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:36,640
highly and repeatedly associated with

485
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:38,320
ufo activity

486
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:40,720
and stan and a number of witnesses he

487
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:42,799
was aware of all got visited by

488
00:17:48,070 --> 00:17:44,960
government people and but not in like a

489
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:48,080
sinister mib sense but basically quietly

490
00:17:52,789 --> 00:17:50,000
saying hey you know we're interested in

491
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,799
these reports can you keep us informed

492
00:17:56,870 --> 00:17:54,640
you know which is in itself was kind of

493
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:56,880
weird but i talked about a few cases

494
00:18:01,430 --> 00:17:58,799
like that in the book where there's

495
00:18:03,430 --> 00:18:01,440
there's deep military interest and

496
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:03,440
there's been a subsequent cover-up put

497
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:06,160
into place and if bigfoot you know these

498
00:18:11,029 --> 00:18:09,039
creatures were just north american apes

499
00:18:13,029 --> 00:18:11,039
that science hadn't found

500
00:18:15,430 --> 00:18:13,039
why place it under a cover-up you know

501
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:15,440
it would be a zoological revelation it

502
00:18:19,430 --> 00:18:16,960
wouldn't be something affecting national

503
00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:19,440
security unless there is this other

504
00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:21,360
aspect to it you know

505
00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:23,280
yeah i mean i sometimes wonder the same

506
00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:24,799
thing like if some of these weirder

507
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:26,000
creatures

508
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:29,200
uh like mothman or shadow people they

509
00:18:34,230 --> 00:18:32,080
might be some type of multi-dimensional

510
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:34,240
manifestation maybe from conjurers like

511
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,799
aleister crowley or that michael aquino

512
00:18:40,789 --> 00:18:38,799
guy because they don't always seem like

513
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,799
flesh and blood creatures i mean even

514
00:18:44,549 --> 00:18:42,720
bigfoot there's some stories that people

515
00:18:46,230 --> 00:18:44,559
can't shoot it

516
00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:46,240
yeah i mean this is actually one of my

517
00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:48,799
big areas of interest i do believe that

518
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:51,200
either these creatures sort of zip in

519
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:53,039
and out of our reality

520
00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:55,200
um you know sort of multi-dimensions

521
00:18:59,669 --> 00:18:57,520
that kind of thing or

522
00:19:01,510 --> 00:18:59,679
or when i say all it could be either or

523
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:01,520
both they could be some sort of like a

524
00:19:05,190 --> 00:19:03,360
tulpa type thing the top is like a

525
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:05,200
thought form where the human mind can

526
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:06,640
sort of create something and then

527
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:08,960
externalize it and it has some sort of

528
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:12,720
like its own independent quasi-reality

529
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:14,960
and it you know they supposedly feed on

530
00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:17,760
high states of human emotion to sustain

531
00:19:22,310 --> 00:19:20,480
them and so you know the whole point is

532
00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:22,320
these things would have to be seen

533
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:24,320
to then allow them to sort of bleed dry

534
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:26,080
the emotion from

535
00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:27,760
from the witness and you know this is

536
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:29,120
actually one of the theories that's been

537
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:31,039
applied it's a bit of off topic but to

538
00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:32,880
the men in black mystery you know the

539
00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:35,600
men in black often come across

540
00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:37,520
not like government agents in the films

541
00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:39,919
you know these creepy weird little

542
00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:42,480
ghoulish vampire type characters you

543
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:45,360
know and witnesses often talk about

544
00:19:49,510 --> 00:19:47,840
feeling hypnotized and drained of energy

545
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:49,520
almost like a diabetic you know if they

546
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:51,360
missed a meal and they started to crash

547
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:53,520
or something they feel like that and

548
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:56,000
they've actually said they felt drained

549
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,000
so a lot of people are sort of coming

550
00:20:02,470 --> 00:20:00,559
around to the idea now maybe the mib

551
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:02,480
you know create this feeling of fear in

552
00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:04,480
the witness not because they're actually

553
00:20:09,029 --> 00:20:06,640
threatening them but it's like a fake

554
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:09,039
threat but the idea is to create fear

555
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:11,280
which they then feed on and then maybe

556
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:12,960
creatures like bigfoot you know do

557
00:20:17,350 --> 00:20:14,960
exactly the same they're almost like

558
00:20:18,830 --> 00:20:17,360
emotional vampires if you like

559
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:18,840
yeah

560
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:21,600
um that is a super interesting topic

561
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:23,760
it's just so hard to know um you know

562
00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:25,360
one of the first weird things in the

563
00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:27,919
world that i was drawn to as a young kid

564
00:20:32,149 --> 00:20:30,400
uh i was glad to see in your book uh is

565
00:20:34,870 --> 00:20:32,159
tales of the loch ness monster you know

566
00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:34,880
it seems much juicier to me than bigfoot

567
00:20:38,630 --> 00:20:36,640
because i used to love dinosaurs i

568
00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:38,640
always wanted to believe that it was

569
00:20:42,149 --> 00:20:39,760
real

570
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:42,159
and it but it seems to have faded out

571
00:20:45,669 --> 00:20:43,919
quite a lot in recent years and yes

572
00:20:47,110 --> 00:20:45,679
there's still no smoking gun but you

573
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:47,120
have discovered some files that show

574
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:48,960
that many government agencies have

575
00:20:52,470 --> 00:20:50,960
looked into nse and have failed to find

576
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:52,480
an explanation for some of the footage

577
00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:53,600
they've studied which has kind of

578
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:55,120
restored my hope

579
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:56,080
good

580
00:21:01,190 --> 00:20:58,880
well yeah i mean loch ness you know it's

581
00:21:03,510 --> 00:21:01,200
a large body of water it's like 22 miles

582
00:21:06,390 --> 00:21:03,520
long about a mile wide and at its

583
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:06,400
deepest point officially round about 800

584
00:21:10,789 --> 00:21:08,799
feet but there are stories about sort of

585
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:10,799
cavernous areas and tunnels below that

586
00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:13,200
might take it conceivably below like a

587
00:21:17,350 --> 00:21:15,039
thousand feet deep so it's very large

588
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:17,360
body of water now of course

589
00:21:22,549 --> 00:21:20,400
if the creatures of loch ness are fish

590
00:21:25,110 --> 00:21:22,559
or you know some sort of creature that

591
00:21:26,549 --> 00:21:25,120
doesn't need to surface for air then we

592
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:26,559
probably wouldn't see them very often

593
00:21:30,710 --> 00:21:28,080
you know just big by chance when they

594
00:21:32,950 --> 00:21:30,720
decided to surface for who knows what

595
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:32,960
reason but primarily if they're living

596
00:21:36,549 --> 00:21:34,880
exclusively under the water there

597
00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:36,559
probably wouldn't be that many sightings

598
00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:38,799
and because loch ness is far more busier

599
00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:40,640
than it was decades ago with you know

600
00:21:43,270 --> 00:21:42,240
boats and traffic

601
00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:43,280
um

602
00:21:46,470 --> 00:21:45,200
going from one side of the lake uh the

603
00:21:48,470 --> 00:21:46,480
lock to the other

604
00:21:50,149 --> 00:21:48,480
then it might sort of

605
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,159
have led these creatures to sort of stay

606
00:21:54,630 --> 00:21:52,320
in the deeper depths almost exclusively

607
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:54,640
now but regardless of you know the sort

608
00:21:59,110 --> 00:21:56,559
of the changes in trends of sightings

609
00:22:01,909 --> 00:21:59,120
and whatever um i did you're right i did

610
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,919
get a hold of a number of files on the

611
00:22:05,350 --> 00:22:03,280
loch ness monster that are being put

612
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:05,360
together by various um british

613
00:22:10,390 --> 00:22:07,440
government agencies one of them was a

614
00:22:13,029 --> 00:22:10,400
group in the 1960s called jarrick which

615
00:22:15,029 --> 00:22:13,039
stands for the joint air reconnaissance

616
00:22:16,310 --> 00:22:15,039
intelligence center and these are the

617
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,320
people kind of like the british

618
00:22:21,190 --> 00:22:18,640
equivalents like in the us where you

619
00:22:23,350 --> 00:22:21,200
know if there's um rumors about a new

620
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:23,360
missile base being built in china you

621
00:22:27,750 --> 00:22:25,360
know they sent like a high-flying spy

622
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:27,760
plane over years ago or tonight or today

623
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:30,240
like a spy satellite and photograph it

624
00:22:32,549 --> 00:22:31,760
and then the photographs are sent back

625
00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:32,559
to

626
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:33,440
you know

627
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,600
military experts who can analyze

628
00:22:39,909 --> 00:22:37,440
photographs and determine you know does

629
00:22:42,310 --> 00:22:39,919
this show and their new aircraft hangar

630
00:22:44,070 --> 00:22:42,320
those missiles you know etc etc that

631
00:22:49,029 --> 00:22:44,080
kind of thing and that's what jarrett

632
00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:49,039
was jobs was to sort of look at um

633
00:22:53,909 --> 00:22:51,679
spy photographs of overseas potentially

634
00:22:55,669 --> 00:22:53,919
hostile military installations and

635
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:55,679
determine what they showed

636
00:23:01,669 --> 00:22:59,200
uh but in the mid 1960s um jarrett set

637
00:23:04,470 --> 00:23:01,679
up like an in-house little project to

638
00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:04,480
study film footage and photographs of

639
00:23:08,870 --> 00:23:06,559
nothing less than the loch ness monster

640
00:23:10,230 --> 00:23:08,880
and what was interesting bearing in mind

641
00:23:12,070 --> 00:23:10,240
you know the caliber of the people

642
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:12,080
working for the group

643
00:23:17,350 --> 00:23:14,720
in a good percentage of all the imagery

644
00:23:20,549 --> 00:23:17,360
they looked at they ruled out

645
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:20,559
things like logs falling into the lock

646
00:23:24,789 --> 00:23:22,799
or rotting trees sort of servicing when

647
00:23:27,590 --> 00:23:24,799
the you know the gas levels change and

648
00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:27,600
just breaking the surface they ruled out

649
00:23:32,789 --> 00:23:30,080
things like wave formations or shadows

650
00:23:35,110 --> 00:23:32,799
or rowing boats and in many cases said

651
00:23:37,590 --> 00:23:35,120
that what they were looking at appeared

652
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:37,600
to be independent

653
00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:40,720
intelligence entities creatures and in

654
00:23:45,190 --> 00:23:43,360
some cases they could see shadows that

655
00:23:47,510 --> 00:23:45,200
seem to suggest that

656
00:23:49,270 --> 00:23:47,520
whatever was on the surface was actually

657
00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:49,280
only a small portion and they could make

658
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:50,400
out vague

659
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:52,559
evidence of what looked like a larger

660
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:55,360
part of the creature below the water

661
00:24:00,470 --> 00:23:57,760
so that in itself you know is

662
00:24:02,230 --> 00:24:00,480
significant for several reasons one you

663
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:02,240
know it demonstrates that the footage

664
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:04,640
and photographs can be vindicated and

665
00:24:07,990 --> 00:24:05,760
number two

666
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:08,000
the people doing the analysis were the

667
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:10,080
best people you could ask for within the

668
00:24:15,110 --> 00:24:12,559
uk you know they were military experts

669
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:15,120
just solely focused on that field

670
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:18,400
now the next files that i um got hold of

671
00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:21,360
pretty much all dated from the 1980s and

672
00:24:25,510 --> 00:24:24,159
during the um when margaret thatcher was

673
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:25,520
the prime minister and the government

674
00:24:28,870 --> 00:24:28,000
had this plan almost like a hair brain

675
00:24:30,789 --> 00:24:28,880
plan

676
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:30,799
to train dolphins

677
00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:33,360
to swim in loch ness and to try and find

678
00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:35,120
the loch ness monsters and the idea was

679
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:37,760
to have the dolphins strapped with

680
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:40,080
cameras and sonar equipment which could

681
00:24:44,149 --> 00:24:42,720
be sort of triggered remotely you know

682
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:44,159
in the event that they came across one

683
00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:46,720
of these creatures um

684
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:48,640
but not much thought seems to have been

685
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:49,760
given to

686
00:24:54,549 --> 00:24:51,919
the idea of how they would actually

687
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:54,559
teach the dolphins to chase the monsters

688
00:24:57,909 --> 00:24:55,360
when

689
00:25:00,710 --> 00:24:57,919
you know nobody actually got an example

690
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,720
of the monster to show them you know

691
00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:02,640
so that was a problem the other one that

692
00:25:06,230 --> 00:25:04,400
not much thought was given to was well

693
00:25:07,990 --> 00:25:06,240
what happens if there is a confrontation

694
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:08,000
between the monsters and dolphins you

695
00:25:12,549 --> 00:25:10,320
know is it going to end in a bloodbath

696
00:25:14,149 --> 00:25:12,559
and and the other thing was well when

697
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:14,159
it's all over how do we encourage the

698
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:16,799
dolphins to come back to shore and you

699
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:18,480
know put them in a tank and get them out

700
00:25:23,269 --> 00:25:20,559
of the lock again so it was all of these

701
00:25:25,590 --> 00:25:23,279
different aspects that eventually

702
00:25:27,269 --> 00:25:25,600
led the government to drop the plan but

703
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:27,279
what's interesting is that you know

704
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:29,600
we've been secret for a few years

705
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:31,760
the this idea was sort of nurtured and

706
00:25:36,310 --> 00:25:33,760
built upon and a lot of thought went

707
00:25:39,110 --> 00:25:36,320
into it but uh as i said sometimes you

708
00:25:41,430 --> 00:25:39,120
know these projects go ahead other times

709
00:25:43,190 --> 00:25:41,440
they're just sort of relegated to you

710
00:25:46,149 --> 00:25:43,200
know some dusty shelf because they were

711
00:25:49,430 --> 00:25:46,159
just too weird to work i guess

712
00:25:51,830 --> 00:25:49,440
yeah i mean i wonder if if there were

713
00:25:53,669 --> 00:25:51,840
some type of prehistoric creature or

714
00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:53,679
something there if it's even still there

715
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:55,760
if they'd even be able to survive still

716
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:57,360
or you know maybe

717
00:26:00,789 --> 00:25:58,799
there's never been a corpse found i

718
00:26:03,269 --> 00:26:00,799
don't either so

719
00:26:04,710 --> 00:26:03,279
well i mean i i i if these creatures are

720
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:04,720
some sort of fish i mean you know the

721
00:26:07,990 --> 00:26:06,159
plesiosaur

722
00:26:09,669 --> 00:26:08,000
is an interesting angle you know plenty

723
00:26:12,230 --> 00:26:09,679
of swords are

724
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:12,240
that existed during the dinosaur area

725
00:26:18,149 --> 00:26:15,440
era but you know they were largely uh or

726
00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:18,159
exclusively as far as we know salt water

727
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:19,440
creatures because they lived in the

728
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:22,320
oceans where loch ness is fresh water

729
00:26:26,310 --> 00:26:24,400
however there are some animals you know

730
00:26:28,149 --> 00:26:26,320
that can adapt for example you have salt

731
00:26:31,029 --> 00:26:28,159
water crocodiles and your freshwater

732
00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:31,039
crocodiles but it's you know it may well

733
00:26:34,549 --> 00:26:33,200
be the case that if these things are

734
00:26:36,789 --> 00:26:34,559
ancient ex

735
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:36,799
presumed extinct animals you know they

736
00:26:41,190 --> 00:26:38,880
might actually really become extinct

737
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:41,200
before we prove what they are and we'll

738
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:44,720
never know but you know i'm not sort of

739
00:26:47,430 --> 00:26:45,760
too worried about the fact that we

740
00:26:48,390 --> 00:26:47,440
haven't found a corpse because if these

741
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:48,400
things

742
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:50,640
exclusively almost exclusively live in

743
00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:52,640
the water although there are one or two

744
00:26:55,269 --> 00:26:54,080
land reports

745
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:55,279
um

746
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:56,880
then they're going to die in the water

747
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:58,480
and you know nature's going to take care

748
00:27:02,310 --> 00:26:59,679
of them the smaller fish are going to

749
00:27:04,470 --> 00:27:02,320
eat them you know and so on that's how

750
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:04,480
nature works so that doesn't surprise me

751
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:05,600
as such you know that they would just

752
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:08,080
sink to the bottom and rot or get eaten

753
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:10,000
um but i mean there are a lot of other

754
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:12,320
interesting theories as well things like

755
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:14,799
um giant eels you know sort of a 30 to

756
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:17,200
40 foot giant eel which i guess by

757
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:19,200
definition would still be a monster you

758
00:27:23,430 --> 00:27:20,880
know um

759
00:27:25,990 --> 00:27:23,440
or the other experience being given is

760
00:27:27,830 --> 00:27:26,000
something like a giant salamander um

761
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:27,840
salamanders you know can grow up to like

762
00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:29,760
six or seven feet but you know a

763
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:32,080
30-footer would would still be sort of a

764
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:35,360
monstrous creature so you know i'm not

765
00:27:39,350 --> 00:27:36,960
sort of tied to the idea that it's

766
00:27:41,990 --> 00:27:39,360
nothing or it's a plesiosaur i think

767
00:27:44,230 --> 00:27:42,000
there are other scenarios and i do

768
00:27:45,990 --> 00:27:44,240
really believe that there have been and

769
00:27:47,909 --> 00:27:46,000
maybe still are strange creatures in the

770
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:47,919
lock but a lot of people don't realize

771
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:50,400
that loch ness is actually connected to

772
00:27:54,310 --> 00:27:52,640
the atlantic ocean by the caledonian

773
00:27:56,470 --> 00:27:54,320
canal you go through like a series of

774
00:27:58,789 --> 00:27:56,480
locks and gates you know to like a

775
00:28:01,909 --> 00:27:58,799
regular canal so what this means is

776
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:01,919
today you have an incredible amount of

777
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:04,559
traffic on loch ness and not just little

778
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:06,399
rowing boats but huge boats that are

779
00:28:09,269 --> 00:28:08,240
going to cross the atlantic

780
00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:09,279
so

781
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:11,360
you know if these creatures are there

782
00:28:15,590 --> 00:28:13,279
and they're not stupid they're going to

783
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:15,600
realize that you know the days and

784
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:18,080
centuries and decades ago when loch ness

785
00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:20,720
was relatively quiet have long gone so

786
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:23,200
they may just simply stay down in the

787
00:28:26,789 --> 00:28:25,039
deeper depths you know it may not be

788
00:28:28,389 --> 00:28:26,799
that their next thing they're just they

789
00:28:30,630 --> 00:28:28,399
just don't surface much because loch

790
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:30,640
ness is like you know the local highway

791
00:28:35,110 --> 00:28:32,720
or whatever now you know

792
00:28:37,669 --> 00:28:35,120
man it is a fascinating case but what's

793
00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:37,679
also very intriguing that i found in

794
00:28:41,510 --> 00:28:39,600
your book is several accounts of

795
00:28:44,310 --> 00:28:41,520
government files you've uncovered that

796
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:44,320
detail some pretty conventional animals

797
00:28:48,070 --> 00:28:45,760
uh involved in some pretty

798
00:28:49,350 --> 00:28:48,080
unconventional experiments and programs

799
00:28:50,549 --> 00:28:49,360
you want to tell us about a couple of

800
00:28:51,990 --> 00:28:50,559
those

801
00:28:54,470 --> 00:28:52,000
yeah well one of the one of the

802
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:54,480
strangest ones i talk about in the book

803
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:56,640
is a cia program that became known as

804
00:29:02,789 --> 00:29:00,240
acoustic kitty and this is a a project

805
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:02,799
from the 1960s and it sounds almost like

806
00:29:07,029 --> 00:29:04,320
it's almost like an animal equivalent of

807
00:29:11,029 --> 00:29:07,039
the six million dollar man or something

808
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:11,039
terminator or robocop the the idea was

809
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:13,440
to try and take regular cats like house

810
00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:16,240
cats pet cats and insert them and wire

811
00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:18,480
them up with sort of like

812
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:20,159
transmitting and

813
00:29:24,310 --> 00:29:22,640
equipment and radar and testing the

814
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:24,320
radio antenna

815
00:29:29,269 --> 00:29:26,960
and things like that and the idea was it

816
00:29:30,870 --> 00:29:29,279
sounds totally far-fetched until we you

817
00:29:32,389 --> 00:29:30,880
realize you know that the files now are

818
00:29:33,990 --> 00:29:32,399
starting to surface through the freedom

819
00:29:36,149 --> 00:29:34,000
of information act some of them are

820
00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:36,159
actually quite heavily redacted but you

821
00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:37,760
know we have got a few which which

822
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:40,000
confirm the existence of the project and

823
00:29:43,830 --> 00:29:41,440
the idea was

824
00:29:45,430 --> 00:29:43,840
to have these cats sort of wired up with

825
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:45,440
all this electronic

826
00:29:50,149 --> 00:29:48,880
gear and gizmos etc and try and train

827
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:50,159
them to

828
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:52,399
walk around the grounds of the soviet

829
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:54,640
embassy in washington dc

830
00:29:59,590 --> 00:29:57,120
and you know if a couple of guys walking

831
00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:59,600
past say name boris and ivan you know in

832
00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:00,799
the grounds

833
00:30:05,190 --> 00:30:02,880
um we're talking about some classified

834
00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:05,200
program and the cat's wired up with all

835
00:30:10,149 --> 00:30:07,840
these sort of radio antenna microphones

836
00:30:11,669 --> 00:30:10,159
and he picked up the conversation

837
00:30:13,669 --> 00:30:11,679
the conversation that could then be

838
00:30:15,669 --> 00:30:13,679
broadcast to cia headquarters and

839
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:15,679
transcribed you know so it almost be

840
00:30:19,029 --> 00:30:17,600
like instead of putting bugging devices

841
00:30:21,669 --> 00:30:19,039
in the offices or the rooms of the

842
00:30:24,630 --> 00:30:21,679
embassy you know no one would think that

843
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:24,640
a little cat wandering around was was a

844
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:27,279
walking meowing bugging device you know

845
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:29,279
yeah and that the idea and incredibly

846
00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:31,840
the very first cat that was

847
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,480
chosen for the operation uh actually

848
00:30:39,430 --> 00:30:36,640
survived having all this sort of wires

849
00:30:42,470 --> 00:30:39,440
and mechanical gear inserted into its

850
00:30:44,710 --> 00:30:42,480
body the problem was of course that

851
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:44,720
you know with with hindsight i mean cats

852
00:30:48,470 --> 00:30:47,200
aren't the the easiest animals to train

853
00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:48,480
you know if you're going to want to

854
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:50,480
train an animal dogs far better cats

855
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:52,640
basically look at you and give you the

856
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:54,399
finger you know what i mean

857
00:30:58,230 --> 00:30:56,320
and um and so

858
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:58,240
that made it problematic but on the very

859
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:00,640
first occasion when they had the cat

860
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:03,760
ready to go so to speak um a team of cia

861
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:06,000
agents you know a regular looking van

862
00:31:11,190 --> 00:31:07,679
just pulled up as close to the soviet

863
00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:11,200
nbc as they could um open the back doors

864
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,880
and sort of urge the cat to sort of

865
00:31:16,230 --> 00:31:14,399
cross the road towards the embassy and

866
00:31:18,549 --> 00:31:16,240
hope for the best but he only got like a

867
00:31:20,630 --> 00:31:18,559
few feet and it was splattered by a taxi

868
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,640
that was speeding along the road

869
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:22,640
and so that was the end of acoustic

870
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:24,240
kitty and it was actually the end of the

871
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:26,480
program and the files that have surfaced

872
00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:29,039
through freedom of information show that

873
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:30,640
the reason was that it was just

874
00:31:34,630 --> 00:31:32,720
perceived as having too many

875
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:34,640
factors that couldn't be

876
00:31:39,750 --> 00:31:37,360
you know necessarily um

877
00:31:41,590 --> 00:31:39,760
you know chosen for and dictated you

878
00:31:43,269 --> 00:31:41,600
know there were two random events that

879
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:43,279
could go wrong and so the thing was shut

880
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:45,760
down but again it sort of demonstrates

881
00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:48,320
some of the really weird aspects of you

882
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:50,480
know how regular animals are used in

883
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:52,559
sort of an irregular practice so to

884
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:53,360
speak

885
00:31:57,430 --> 00:31:55,600
yeah i mean that is pretty morbid

886
00:31:58,950 --> 00:31:57,440
another one that was pretty interesting

887
00:32:01,830 --> 00:31:58,960
you know we had i don't know if you're

888
00:32:03,269 --> 00:32:01,840
familiar with rupert sheldrake but um

889
00:32:05,909 --> 00:32:03,279
we had him on the show recently he's

890
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:05,919
done a lot of research into animal esp

891
00:32:09,029 --> 00:32:07,120
with dogs

892
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:09,039
um you know animal dogs that know when

893
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:10,720
their owners are coming home they seem

894
00:32:15,190 --> 00:32:13,279
to just know as soon as the owner stands

895
00:32:17,430 --> 00:32:15,200
up at their desk at work and it's like a

896
00:32:20,710 --> 00:32:17,440
esp kind of thing and you also have kind

897
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:20,720
of a story about dog esp in the book too

898
00:32:25,269 --> 00:32:23,200
yeah this goes back to the early 1950s

899
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:25,279
and again this is from files which have

900
00:32:29,669 --> 00:32:27,360
surfaced from the us army through the

901
00:32:32,230 --> 00:32:29,679
freedom of information act and they talk

902
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:32,240
about a little project that was set up

903
00:32:37,269 --> 00:32:34,240
in 1952

904
00:32:39,990 --> 00:32:37,279
to see if dogs possessed esp and the

905
00:32:42,870 --> 00:32:40,000
plan was that if they did possess esp

906
00:32:44,230 --> 00:32:42,880
could it be used to locate landmines on

907
00:32:47,350 --> 00:32:44,240
battlefields

908
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:47,360
now the the papers again have be fairly

909
00:32:51,669 --> 00:32:49,519
redacted in some places but they show

910
00:32:53,669 --> 00:32:51,679
that two german shepherd dogs were

911
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:53,679
chosen for this particular project their

912
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:56,480
names were tessie and beanie

913
00:33:00,389 --> 00:32:58,000
and we don't know because we don't have

914
00:33:01,590 --> 00:33:00,399
all the files but we don't know how or

915
00:33:03,509 --> 00:33:01,600
why

916
00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:03,519
or under what circumstances i should say

917
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:05,440
that their psychic powers were deemed to

918
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:08,559
be real but apparently they were and so

919
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:10,399
what happened was that this program went

920
00:33:15,269 --> 00:33:13,279
ahead on various stretches of beach um

921
00:33:17,430 --> 00:33:15,279
sort of down by highway one in

922
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:17,440
california um you know sort of running

923
00:33:21,350 --> 00:33:20,080
from los angeles way up to um san

924
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:21,360
francisco

925
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:22,640
and

926
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:28,080
dummy mines were sort of they weren't i

927
00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:29,279
should stress that you know they weren't

928
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:31,360
live like dummy mines were sort of laid

929
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:33,440
out on the beach or in some cases

930
00:33:38,230 --> 00:33:36,000
actually six or seven feet down and in a

931
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:38,240
couple of cases they buried them a few

932
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:41,440
feet down but like 15 feet out to sea

933
00:33:45,110 --> 00:33:42,799
and then the dogs would be sort of

934
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:45,120
unloaded from the van or whatever

935
00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:46,320
and

936
00:33:56,070 --> 00:33:53,120
in something like 70 or 80 percent of

937
00:33:57,750 --> 00:33:56,080
the trials they actually succeeded but

938
00:33:59,590 --> 00:33:57,760
for some weird reason

939
00:34:02,310 --> 00:33:59,600
even when some of the cases where the

940
00:34:04,230 --> 00:34:02,320
mines were easily locatable they didn't

941
00:34:06,070 --> 00:34:04,240
find them and so

942
00:34:08,230 --> 00:34:06,080
the the ultimate conclusion of the

943
00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:08,240
military was that there clearly seemed

944
00:34:11,669 --> 00:34:09,520
to be some

945
00:34:13,510 --> 00:34:11,679
unknown power or skill that the dogs

946
00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:13,520
possessed that allowed them to find the

947
00:34:17,589 --> 00:34:16,399
mines but it didn't work every time you

948
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:17,599
know there were times when it was hit

949
00:34:21,349 --> 00:34:19,839
and miss and it couldn't be predicted

950
00:34:22,629 --> 00:34:21,359
and that's kind of like the whole thing

951
00:34:24,389 --> 00:34:22,639
with the government

952
00:34:26,950 --> 00:34:24,399
and the remote viewing programs of the

953
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:26,960
70s and onwards you know where they had

954
00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:28,720
a lot of good remote viewers who and it

955
00:34:32,310 --> 00:34:30,560
was clear they had some skills but then

956
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:32,320
there are other times you know and it

957
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:33,760
was just shut down it was almost like

958
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:35,359
the equivalent of writer's block or

959
00:34:39,270 --> 00:34:37,200
something like that you know

960
00:34:41,109 --> 00:34:39,280
and i think that's the reason with this

961
00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:41,119
psychic dog program what is pretty much

962
00:34:45,430 --> 00:34:43,520
shut down was not so much because they

963
00:34:47,669 --> 00:34:45,440
didn't have successes they did but

964
00:34:50,230 --> 00:34:47,679
because they couldn't predict the

965
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:50,240
successes and when it failed it just

966
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:52,480
totally failed and so they sort of

967
00:34:57,190 --> 00:34:55,280
preferred to go back to sort of regular

968
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:57,200
human resources i suppose and more

969
00:35:00,150 --> 00:34:59,040
conventional ways of looking for for the

970
00:35:02,710 --> 00:35:00,160
minds

971
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:02,720
yeah and when it fails in the field i

972
00:35:07,030 --> 00:35:04,640
mean that's going to be a pretty

973
00:35:08,790 --> 00:35:07,040
nasty mess for the pr team

974
00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:08,800
yeah exactly

975
00:35:12,470 --> 00:35:10,240
um

976
00:35:14,069 --> 00:35:12,480
man you know messing with dolphins and

977
00:35:15,349 --> 00:35:14,079
cats and dogs

978
00:35:16,870 --> 00:35:15,359
they're uh

979
00:35:18,390 --> 00:35:16,880
you know they it's almost like the

980
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:18,400
governments just use these animals as

981
00:35:23,109 --> 00:35:20,800
tools more than thinking them of them as

982
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:23,119
live creatures but uh you know there's

983
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:25,680
another crazy thing about the soviet

984
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,680
union i believe it was who attempted to

985
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:29,280
cross breed

986
00:35:33,349 --> 00:35:31,280
apes with people i mean that was a

987
00:35:34,550 --> 00:35:33,359
fascinating chapter pretty creepy

988
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:34,560
chapter

989
00:35:39,829 --> 00:35:36,400
yeah this goes back way back to the

990
00:35:41,829 --> 00:35:39,839
1920s and a russian scientist named ilya

991
00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:41,839
ivanov and he was a very brilliant

992
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:44,320
russian scientist but he was also like a

993
00:35:49,990 --> 00:35:46,720
typical sort of dr frankenstein mad

994
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:50,000
professor type um he had an obsession

995
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:51,599
and and it is fair to call it an

996
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,320
obsession not just an interest um

997
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:56,400
you're trying to crossbreed humans with

998
00:36:01,190 --> 00:35:59,280
apes and particularly um gorillas and

999
00:36:03,589 --> 00:36:01,200
chimpanzees now

1000
00:36:05,750 --> 00:36:03,599
you know back in the 1920s there was

1001
00:36:07,750 --> 00:36:05,760
nothing like gene splicing you know and

1002
00:36:08,630 --> 00:36:07,760
dna was in its infancy that kind of

1003
00:36:10,310 --> 00:36:08,640
thing

1004
00:36:12,950 --> 00:36:10,320
um and

1005
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:12,960
but nevertheless the soviet government's

1006
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:16,960
academy of sciences um actually funded

1007
00:36:21,750 --> 00:36:19,440
ivanov to a highly significant amount to

1008
00:36:24,069 --> 00:36:21,760
where he was able to travel had the

1009
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:24,079
funding to travel to west africa and had

1010
00:36:28,630 --> 00:36:26,480
an entire team that helped him round up

1011
00:36:30,150 --> 00:36:28,640
a number of female guerrillas and

1012
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:30,160
chimpanzees

1013
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:32,560
and laboratories were built all across

1014
00:36:37,589 --> 00:36:35,200
west africa and some in russia as well

1015
00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:37,599
where these experiments went ahead now

1016
00:36:41,109 --> 00:36:38,880
as i said we you know there's nothing

1017
00:36:43,190 --> 00:36:41,119
like jane splicing so basically yeah the

1018
00:36:45,109 --> 00:36:43,200
old fashioned way get the old-fashioned

1019
00:36:46,550 --> 00:36:45,119
way exactly now of course nobody wanted

1020
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:46,560
to volunteer to impregnate the

1021
00:36:50,710 --> 00:36:48,800
guerrillas so they had to essentially

1022
00:36:54,390 --> 00:36:50,720
you know just take human sperm and

1023
00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:54,400
inject it into anaesthetized gorillas

1024
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:57,440
and chimpanzees now granted you know

1025
00:37:02,950 --> 00:37:00,400
we're actually like 98 compatible

1026
00:37:04,790 --> 00:37:02,960
dna wise chimpanzees but it's that small

1027
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:04,800
percentage that isn't compatible that

1028
00:37:09,270 --> 00:37:06,720
makes us look so different from

1029
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:09,280
chimpanzees and acts so different

1030
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:10,960
and nature you know has a way of

1031
00:37:14,870 --> 00:37:12,560
ensuring that sort of

1032
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:14,880
freaks of nature and you know

1033
00:37:20,550 --> 00:37:18,400
interspecies um

1034
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:20,560
offspring don't occur

1035
00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:23,119
and as far as we know at least or the

1036
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:24,640
official stories that all these

1037
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:26,960
experiments that ivan i've undertook

1038
00:37:32,550 --> 00:37:29,839
ended in failure but there are a few

1039
00:37:34,870 --> 00:37:32,560
rumors suggesting that maybe against all

1040
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:34,880
the odds you know a few freakish

1041
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,040
creatures were born to these you know to

1042
00:37:41,589 --> 00:37:39,440
the female chimpanzees and guerrillas

1043
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:41,599
and that the stories about some of them

1044
00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:44,240
living just briefly others you know

1045
00:37:48,710 --> 00:37:46,079
suggesting they lived actually a long

1046
00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:48,720
time uh and looked sort of

1047
00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:50,720
like sort of a freakish crush between

1048
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:53,680
humans and apes you know and one of the

1049
00:37:58,310 --> 00:37:56,480
ironic theories is that some of these

1050
00:38:00,550 --> 00:37:58,320
offspring that was sort of supposedly

1051
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:00,560
mentally [\h__\h] and you know it would

1052
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:01,920
have put brought shame on the whole

1053
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,920
project rather than being killed you

1054
00:38:07,750 --> 00:38:06,000
know because they were part human they

1055
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:07,760
were banished to the wilds of like

1056
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:10,160
siberia and then when people saw them it

1057
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:12,800
gave rise to the idea that oh russia's

1058
00:38:16,870 --> 00:38:14,640
got its own bigfoot you know not

1059
00:38:19,829 --> 00:38:16,880
realizing it but maybe the outgrowth of

1060
00:38:21,349 --> 00:38:19,839
some of these secret projects so uh

1061
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:21,359
i don't think we've probably heard the

1062
00:38:25,109 --> 00:38:22,640
end of the story i think there's

1063
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:25,119
probably more to uncover and um you know

1064
00:38:29,670 --> 00:38:27,920
maybe as i said against all the odds one

1065
00:38:31,349 --> 00:38:29,680
or two experiments really did work you

1066
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:31,359
know we just we just don't really know

1067
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:32,720
unfortunately

1068
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:33,680
yeah

1069
00:38:38,790 --> 00:38:35,839
that's that's wild there's a photo in

1070
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:38,800
the book that is of a suggested hybrid

1071
00:38:43,990 --> 00:38:41,119
that is pretty interesting too

1072
00:38:46,870 --> 00:38:44,000
yeah that's a woman named julia pastrana

1073
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:46,880
and back in the 19th century like a lot

1074
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:48,880
of people who had unfortunately had like

1075
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:50,800
sort of physical afflictions you know

1076
00:38:54,790 --> 00:38:52,480
she earned her living in the so-called

1077
00:38:55,510 --> 00:38:54,800
old circus freak shows that kind of

1078
00:38:57,670 --> 00:38:55,520
thing

1079
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:57,680
um now what we know for sure is that she

1080
00:39:01,510 --> 00:38:59,760
had a condition called hypertrichosis

1081
00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:01,520
and that's a real condition it's where

1082
00:39:04,790 --> 00:39:03,760
the body and the face and pretty much

1083
00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:04,800
everywhere

1084
00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:07,440
um just grows massive amounts of excess

1085
00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:09,440
hair you know and it just covers the

1086
00:39:14,230 --> 00:39:11,920
entire body and face all over

1087
00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:14,240
and it's unofficially known as werewolf

1088
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,359
syndrome

1089
00:39:19,109 --> 00:39:16,800
uh which gives you sort of an idea of

1090
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:19,119
how a person looks but if the person

1091
00:39:24,230 --> 00:39:21,760
sort of regularly shaves or has the the

1092
00:39:26,150 --> 00:39:24,240
hair you know sort of medically removed

1093
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:26,160
they look just like a normal regular

1094
00:39:29,270 --> 00:39:27,680
person you know you would never know

1095
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:29,280
until the stubble starts to come through

1096
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:33,520
again um but julia pastrana she looks

1097
00:39:37,829 --> 00:39:35,119
very strange because as well as being

1098
00:39:40,310 --> 00:39:37,839
covered in hair she has almost let's say

1099
00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:40,320
deformed jaws but she has like elongated

1100
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:43,359
and very muscular looking powerful jaws

1101
00:39:49,829 --> 00:39:46,720
not unlike a gorilla or a chimpanzee

1102
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:49,839
um and so she looks very strange and the

1103
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:51,359
fact that she is covered in hair

1104
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:54,480
suggests that maybe her hypertrichosis

1105
00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:57,040
wasn't due to the regular condition

1106
00:40:02,069 --> 00:39:58,560
because the regular condition doesn't

1107
00:40:04,310 --> 00:40:02,079
cause facial or appearance abnormalities

1108
00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:04,320
and she you know is one of the ones who

1109
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:06,240
there are still questions raised about

1110
00:40:11,349 --> 00:40:09,040
you know was she completely human or

1111
00:40:13,670 --> 00:40:11,359
again you know was she one of these

1112
00:40:16,150 --> 00:40:13,680
some sort of offspring that's you know

1113
00:40:18,950 --> 00:40:16,160
again against every odd

1114
00:40:20,790 --> 00:40:18,960
that managed to survive you know yeah it

1115
00:40:22,829 --> 00:40:20,800
definitely is a picture worth looking at

1116
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:22,839
for anyone who's interested

1117
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:25,280
um you know another subject you've

1118
00:40:30,310 --> 00:40:27,520
looked in before i think it also crops

1119
00:40:33,510 --> 00:40:30,320
up in this book um under the label of

1120
00:40:35,510 --> 00:40:33,520
abc's you know the alien big cats but

1121
00:40:37,270 --> 00:40:35,520
what was interesting about

1122
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:37,280
their appearance in monster files is

1123
00:40:41,589 --> 00:40:39,280
there seems to be a connection between

1124
00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:41,599
princess diana and these cats apparently

1125
00:40:45,190 --> 00:40:42,880
right

1126
00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:45,200
well by default she's been linked to a

1127
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:48,160
conspiracy concerning the big cats now

1128
00:40:53,349 --> 00:40:50,240
all across britain for decades have been

1129
00:40:55,349 --> 00:40:53,359
reports of big cats on the loose um kind

1130
00:40:57,910 --> 00:40:55,359
of like the equivalent of like a fully

1131
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:57,920
grown black leopard or you know sort of

1132
00:41:01,349 --> 00:40:59,599
mountain lion that you would see in the

1133
00:41:02,550 --> 00:41:01,359
pacific northwest forest that kind of

1134
00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:02,560
thing

1135
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:06,480
that running around the uk at all you

1136
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:09,440
know other than pet cats um the only

1137
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:10,400
thing

1138
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:12,079
the only other cat in britain is called

1139
00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:14,480
the scottish wildcat which as its name

1140
00:41:17,670 --> 00:41:16,079
suggests it lives in the wild when it

1141
00:41:19,750 --> 00:41:17,680
lives in scotland

1142
00:41:21,510 --> 00:41:19,760
but even the wild cat it's barely any

1143
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:21,520
bigger than a normal house cat and it

1144
00:41:25,030 --> 00:41:23,200
looks just like a house cat but it's

1145
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:25,040
actually quite savage and you know they

1146
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:26,800
will give you a nasty scratch or bite if

1147
00:41:30,470 --> 00:41:29,119
you get too close to him in the wild

1148
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,480
but you know you're not going to mistake

1149
00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:32,720
a scottish wildcat for a mountain flying

1150
00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:34,560
you know there's no comparison and yet

1151
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:36,400
people see these things every day so the

1152
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:38,800
big question is where are they from well

1153
00:41:42,710 --> 00:41:40,400
part of the answer probably lies in the

1154
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:42,720
fact that back in 1976 the government

1155
00:41:47,190 --> 00:41:45,280
passed a law the dangerous walls at wild

1156
00:41:49,589 --> 00:41:47,200
animals act which meant that anybody

1157
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:49,599
wanted to own a big cat or a large cat

1158
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:51,760
had to have a license and a fully secure

1159
00:41:56,309 --> 00:41:54,000
enclosure to keep it in before that as

1160
00:41:57,990 --> 00:41:56,319
incredible as it sounds anyone in the uk

1161
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:58,000
could own a big cat just keep it in

1162
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:00,079
their backyard and uh it's amazing

1163
00:42:05,109 --> 00:42:03,280
nobody got killed and we know people did

1164
00:42:07,829 --> 00:42:05,119
but because some of them couldn't afford

1165
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:07,839
to you know pay for the new license and

1166
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:10,400
build new enclosures we a few people

1167
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:11,760
have come forward to say well you know

1168
00:42:15,109 --> 00:42:13,520
we let our cats go into the woods in the

1169
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:15,119
middle of the night and males and

1170
00:42:19,109 --> 00:42:17,760
females and they may have mated and then

1171
00:42:20,870 --> 00:42:19,119
you know today we've seen third or

1172
00:42:24,150 --> 00:42:20,880
fourth generation

1173
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:24,160
um cats after the 1976 releases that

1174
00:42:27,990 --> 00:42:26,160
explains part of the story but the

1175
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:28,000
problem is the reports going back

1176
00:42:32,309 --> 00:42:29,920
decades before that and actually into

1177
00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:32,319
the 17th and 18th centuries

1178
00:42:36,870 --> 00:42:34,240
so you know maybe

1179
00:42:38,309 --> 00:42:36,880
sailors from overseas brought back cats

1180
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:38,319
you know and

1181
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:39,440
they're actually been breeding for

1182
00:42:43,190 --> 00:42:41,200
centuries in the wild you know and in

1183
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:43,200
secrets i think so you know we've got a

1184
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:44,480
couple of angles

1185
00:42:48,230 --> 00:42:46,640
but people nevertheless still see these

1186
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:48,240
uh cats today you know the hundreds of

1187
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:49,839
reports coming every year so there's

1188
00:42:54,710 --> 00:42:52,480
clearly something going on now

1189
00:42:58,150 --> 00:42:54,720
in the late 1980s a friend of mine named

1190
00:43:00,390 --> 00:42:58,160
john downes um who like me writes books

1191
00:43:02,950 --> 00:43:00,400
and investigates strange creatures john

1192
00:43:06,150 --> 00:43:02,960
got a telephone call from a former

1193
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:06,160
british army soldier um and he was part

1194
00:43:10,950 --> 00:43:08,400
of like an elite unit that was shadowing

1195
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,960
princess diana because the british

1196
00:43:15,270 --> 00:43:13,119
governments and military intelligence

1197
00:43:18,470 --> 00:43:15,280
had picked up on rumors which they took

1198
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:18,480
very seriously that some organization or

1199
00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:20,960
possibly several were planning to either

1200
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,640
kidnap or assassinate princess diana and

1201
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:26,400
they didn't want to alarm

1202
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:28,240
the princess and they didn't want the

1203
00:43:32,390 --> 00:43:30,720
story getting out to the media because

1204
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:32,400
their plan was if they kept it under

1205
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:34,000
wraps it would help them

1206
00:43:36,950 --> 00:43:35,119
to

1207
00:43:39,190 --> 00:43:36,960
track down who these people were because

1208
00:43:40,870 --> 00:43:39,200
it was spilled all over the newspapers

1209
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:40,880
then the people just go to hiding and

1210
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:42,400
they'd never find them and you know then

1211
00:43:46,309 --> 00:43:44,800
they could plan another attack later on

1212
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:46,319
so they wanted to keep it all under

1213
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:48,560
wraps and so what they did this small

1214
00:43:53,270 --> 00:43:50,400
unit of like five or six soldiers you

1215
00:43:56,230 --> 00:43:53,280
know so highly trained you know used to

1216
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:56,240
um maneuvers at night time very skilled

1217
00:44:01,430 --> 00:43:59,520
with guns and pistols rifles whatever um

1218
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:01,440
they would shadow and watch diana

1219
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:04,560
wherever she went now this was john got

1220
00:44:10,150 --> 00:44:06,640
the call in 1989

1221
00:44:12,790 --> 00:44:10,160
and the the group its activities that

1222
00:44:16,390 --> 00:44:12,800
began round about 1985 onwards and at

1223
00:44:18,550 --> 00:44:16,400
some point between those years um

1224
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:18,560
the group actually shadowed uh diana

1225
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,480
when she traveled down to the old

1226
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,720
english county of devonshire the people

1227
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:24,319
are wondering devonshire is where sir

1228
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:26,560
arthur cohen and doyle set the sherlock

1229
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:27,599
holmes novel the hand of the

1230
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:30,079
baskervilles so it's like this foggy old

1231
00:44:33,430 --> 00:44:32,160
mauland with old castles and stone

1232
00:44:35,109 --> 00:44:33,440
circles and

1233
00:44:36,790 --> 00:44:35,119
you know it looks exactly the same today

1234
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:36,800
looks like you stepped back in time you

1235
00:44:41,510 --> 00:44:38,640
know and you expect to see this

1236
00:44:44,230 --> 00:44:41,520
blazing eyed hound come you know racing

1237
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:44,240
across the moors um but

1238
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:46,720
this was the time when um diana's

1239
00:44:50,069 --> 00:44:48,480
marriage to prince charles you know was

1240
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:50,079
sort of on the rocks and she was seeing

1241
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:53,359
other people boyfriends etc at the time

1242
00:44:59,990 --> 00:44:56,480
and one of these uh actually lived

1243
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:00,000
in a little village um on on dartmoor

1244
00:45:05,910 --> 00:45:02,880
excuse me devonshire and um

1245
00:45:08,069 --> 00:45:05,920
so this team shadowed diana and

1246
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,079
essentially sort of made like a stakeout

1247
00:45:12,390 --> 00:45:10,640
in the village um late at night and sort

1248
00:45:14,790 --> 00:45:12,400
of you know stayed in the shadows behind

1249
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:14,800
bushes etc just keeping an eye on the

1250
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:19,040
property uh where diana was visiting and

1251
00:45:22,309 --> 00:45:20,880
to the amazement of the troops when they

1252
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:22,319
were looking through night scopes you

1253
00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:24,079
know just keeping envisioned on the

1254
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:27,200
house they saw this huge black cat sort

1255
00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:28,960
of go prowling past the side of the

1256
00:45:32,870 --> 00:45:30,800
property and literally right past the

1257
00:45:33,589 --> 00:45:32,880
front door you know which was almost

1258
00:45:35,349 --> 00:45:33,599
like

1259
00:45:36,630 --> 00:45:35,359
the worst national security issue you

1260
00:45:39,270 --> 00:45:36,640
could think of you know they were trying

1261
00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:39,280
to deal with with you know terrorists or

1262
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:41,359
whatever and here's this savage black

1263
00:45:44,710 --> 00:45:42,880
cat and they they didn't know what to do

1264
00:45:46,390 --> 00:45:44,720
you know it was like if they shoot it

1265
00:45:48,150 --> 00:45:46,400
was going to wake the entire village up

1266
00:45:49,670 --> 00:45:48,160
and before you know it the tabloid press

1267
00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:49,680
will be on the store and it'll all come

1268
00:45:54,150 --> 00:45:52,400
tumbling out if they didn't do anything

1269
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:54,160
the very fact that the cat was right by

1270
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:56,480
the door you know what if it broke in

1271
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:58,079
and you know attacked the princess you

1272
00:46:01,829 --> 00:46:00,319
know or killed it even worse so they

1273
00:46:03,990 --> 00:46:01,839
didn't know what to do and they actually

1274
00:46:05,589 --> 00:46:04,000
chose to do nothing and just sort of

1275
00:46:07,510 --> 00:46:05,599
held their breath and just kept their

1276
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:07,520
sights trained on the cat

1277
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:09,280
but they figured that you know it was

1278
00:46:14,150 --> 00:46:11,520
looking for small animals to eat or

1279
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:14,160
whatever and eventually they watched it

1280
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:15,920
as it just sort of saunted off and

1281
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:18,880
headed off towards the moors and it was

1282
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:19,760
gone

1283
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:20,720
now

1284
00:46:26,550 --> 00:46:23,280
as john was told when this sold related

1285
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:26,560
the facts years later um

1286
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:27,920
the you know there really was a

1287
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:30,000
conspiracy put into place to hide the

1288
00:46:34,790 --> 00:46:32,880
truth of these big cats by the military

1289
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:34,800
you know the military itself uh realized

1290
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:37,200
these things existed but they elected to

1291
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:39,920
cover it up because by default if they

1292
00:46:44,790 --> 00:46:42,480
revealed what they knew about the big

1293
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:44,800
cats and how they knew it it would then

1294
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:46,880
reveal what they were doing down in

1295
00:46:52,150 --> 00:46:49,040
devonshire and why why they happen to

1296
00:46:55,109 --> 00:46:52,160
see it so in other words it was like the

1297
00:46:57,190 --> 00:46:55,119
cover-up of the big cats was was forced

1298
00:46:58,470 --> 00:46:57,200
on them by the fact that they had to

1299
00:47:00,230 --> 00:46:58,480
cover up the fact that they were

1300
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:00,240
watching diana so it's almost like a

1301
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:02,640
roundabout conspiracy but but still a

1302
00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:05,200
conspiracy nevertheless yeah i wonder

1303
00:47:08,950 --> 00:47:07,200
how many stories out there are really

1304
00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:08,960
like how many things we'd love to get

1305
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:10,720
information on are covered ups just

1306
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:12,480
because they're associated with some

1307
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:14,400
other thing that we don't even really

1308
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:16,240
care about that's probably somewhat

1309
00:47:19,829 --> 00:47:18,880
boring but to the uh to the government

1310
00:47:22,309 --> 00:47:19,839
it's like

1311
00:47:24,069 --> 00:47:22,319
a serious security issue

1312
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:24,079
why do you think that probably happens a

1313
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:26,480
lot you know because we tend to focus on

1314
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:28,160
if the government's hiding

1315
00:47:31,270 --> 00:47:29,359
you know if the british military's

1316
00:47:32,790 --> 00:47:31,280
hiding something on big cats you know we

1317
00:47:34,150 --> 00:47:32,800
automatically think oh well they're

1318
00:47:36,150 --> 00:47:34,160
hiding it because they don't want the

1319
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:36,160
general public to panic and that may

1320
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:38,720
well be part of it but

1321
00:47:43,510 --> 00:47:41,520
it may also be the fact that some likely

1322
00:47:45,510 --> 00:47:43,520
this one something else is going on and

1323
00:47:46,950 --> 00:47:45,520
until somebody comes forward like john's

1324
00:47:48,390 --> 00:47:46,960
informant

1325
00:47:50,309 --> 00:47:48,400
all you're seeing is one part of the

1326
00:47:51,990 --> 00:47:50,319
picture and that part of picture you are

1327
00:47:53,829 --> 00:47:52,000
seeing actually looks credible and

1328
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:53,839
understandable but then when you see the

1329
00:47:58,550 --> 00:47:56,640
other part it's it totally sort of

1330
00:48:01,109 --> 00:47:58,560
throws a you know a

1331
00:48:02,710 --> 00:48:01,119
spanner in the works so to speak and um

1332
00:48:03,990 --> 00:48:02,720
you know the whole thing is turned on

1333
00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:04,000
its head where you still have a

1334
00:48:08,710 --> 00:48:06,000
conspiracy but for a totally different

1335
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:08,720
reason for the one you're expecting

1336
00:48:13,349 --> 00:48:11,040
yeah and another topic that was in the

1337
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:13,359
book that is really interesting is

1338
00:48:17,190 --> 00:48:15,200
the the iceman a lot of people are

1339
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:17,200
probably familiar with the the stories

1340
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:20,400
of the the iceman um we actually had

1341
00:48:22,950 --> 00:48:21,920
someone come on and talk about it not

1342
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:22,960
long ago

1343
00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:23,920
who

1344
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:27,040
was a fraud

1345
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:29,760
but um you know you you have uncovered

1346
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:31,760
some some people's testimonies you've

1347
00:48:34,710 --> 00:48:33,040
talked about it and said they could

1348
00:48:36,309 --> 00:48:34,720
smell the creatures so i mean that's

1349
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,319
pretty interesting

1350
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:38,160
yeah i mean the minnesota iceman

1351
00:48:43,510 --> 00:48:40,400
actually goes back to the mid-1960s and

1352
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:43,520
just as an aside the the model that some

1353
00:48:47,589 --> 00:48:44,960
people say was always a model is

1354
00:48:49,349 --> 00:48:47,599
actually going to be unveiled um this

1355
00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:49,359
coming saturday at the museum of the

1356
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:51,440
weird in austin texas it goes on public

1357
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:53,040
display there

1358
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,200
after being sort of in a state of limbo

1359
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:57,119
for years so if you're ever in austin

1360
00:49:01,109 --> 00:48:58,800
texas you can go down to the museum of

1361
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:01,119
the weed and see in case you're nice

1362
00:49:06,549 --> 00:49:04,000
but um the the story is that back in the

1363
00:49:08,710 --> 00:49:06,559
mid 1960s a man named frank hansen who

1364
00:49:10,710 --> 00:49:08,720
lived in minnesota hanson was one of

1365
00:49:12,470 --> 00:49:10,720
these guys who put on like

1366
00:49:14,230 --> 00:49:12,480
you know controversial displays like

1367
00:49:16,710 --> 00:49:14,240
state fairs you know come and see the

1368
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,720
two-headed snake and the bearded lady

1369
00:49:19,589 --> 00:49:18,319
that kind of thing you know

1370
00:49:23,910 --> 00:49:19,599
and um

1371
00:49:26,549 --> 00:49:23,920
he acquired this body um encased in a

1372
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:26,559
huge block of ice and supposedly it had

1373
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:29,440
come to hansen from an anonymous

1374
00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:31,760
millionaire friend of his who in turn

1375
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:33,760
had supposedly got it from well we're

1376
00:49:38,069 --> 00:49:35,760
not really sure where one theory is that

1377
00:49:40,710 --> 00:49:38,079
it was like a primitive hair-covered

1378
00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:40,720
human-type creature shot in the woods of

1379
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:42,800
minnesota hence why became known as the

1380
00:49:47,349 --> 00:49:45,359
minnesota iceman another theory which is

1381
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,359
sort of more intriguing is it was

1382
00:49:51,190 --> 00:49:49,599
actually shot and killed by troops in

1383
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:51,200
the vietnam war in the jungles of

1384
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:53,760
vietnam and then secretly shipped back

1385
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:55,200
to the us

1386
00:49:59,349 --> 00:49:57,119
uh by this millionaire who had it

1387
00:50:01,750 --> 00:49:59,359
arranged in body in a body bag you know

1388
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:01,760
like a soldier's body bag and and then

1389
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:04,720
handed over to him and then when hanson

1390
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:07,040
made friends with him you know he agreed

1391
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:08,800
to allow frank hansen to put it on

1392
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:10,480
display for a while

1393
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:12,800
um before it was replaced supposedly

1394
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:14,880
with like a sophisticated dummy now of

1395
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:16,319
course as you pointed out you know some

1396
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:18,000
people do think their entire thing was a

1397
00:50:22,950 --> 00:50:20,720
hoax and the only body that ever existed

1398
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:22,960
was the dummy but there are reason to

1399
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:25,440
think that wasn't the case for example

1400
00:50:31,510 --> 00:50:29,520
in the mid-1960s a number of um

1401
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:31,520
well-respected cryptozoologists such as

1402
00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:33,920
ivan sanderson and bernard hubelmans

1403
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,960
dabbled up to minnesota to visit the

1404
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:38,720
display actually before it went on

1405
00:50:43,030 --> 00:50:40,960
display and they said that looking

1406
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:43,040
through the ice you know it didn't look

1407
00:50:47,109 --> 00:50:44,640
like a dummy it looked highly

1408
00:50:48,870 --> 00:50:47,119
sophisticated it didn't look like you

1409
00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:48,880
know hair stuck on or just like the

1410
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:50,400
gorilla suit you know that you would get

1411
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:53,200
from a novelty store or whatever um and

1412
00:50:56,870 --> 00:50:54,960
as they got close to the ice and peered

1413
00:50:59,750 --> 00:50:56,880
in it they could sort of smell this

1414
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:59,760
putrid rotting smell you know which is

1415
00:51:03,109 --> 00:51:00,800
like it's

1416
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:03,119
like a fairly sophisticated thing to do

1417
00:51:06,630 --> 00:51:04,800
if you're going to hoax it you know to

1418
00:51:08,309 --> 00:51:06,640
uh yeah right

1419
00:51:09,750 --> 00:51:08,319
cover the ice in wretched meat or

1420
00:51:11,670 --> 00:51:09,760
something like that

1421
00:51:13,190 --> 00:51:11,680
and so that led them to actually believe

1422
00:51:15,349 --> 00:51:13,200
you know it was a real creature and they

1423
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:15,359
said it was like shot through the eye

1424
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,960
and it looked like a real bullet hole

1425
00:51:20,790 --> 00:51:18,400
you know it didn't look like

1426
00:51:22,950 --> 00:51:20,800
um you know makeup or anything like that

1427
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:22,960
and it went on display various places

1428
00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:24,880
over the years and through the 70s and

1429
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:26,640
then you know after time it sort of went

1430
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:28,480
missing for a while then just got you

1431
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:31,920
know stored away etc but at the height

1432
00:51:35,750 --> 00:51:34,880
of the uh the mania for it if you like

1433
00:51:38,630 --> 00:51:35,760
in the

1434
00:51:41,750 --> 00:51:38,640
late 1960s none other than the fbi got

1435
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:41,760
involved because you had this rumor that

1436
00:51:46,710 --> 00:51:44,240
the iceman wasn't some sort of unknown

1437
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:46,720
ape it was a primitive type of human and

1438
00:51:51,349 --> 00:51:48,880
when rumors began to circulate that it

1439
00:51:53,589 --> 00:51:51,359
had been shot you know bureaucracy got

1440
00:51:55,589 --> 00:51:53,599
involved and said well even if it's a

1441
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:55,599
primitive human it it still might be

1442
00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:57,280
human and if it was shot

1443
00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:00,400
that means a murder took place and so

1444
00:52:03,750 --> 00:52:02,160
the fbi got involved and actually sent

1445
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:03,760
one of their special agents out to

1446
00:52:06,549 --> 00:52:05,440
hanson's home and you know knocked on

1447
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:06,559
the door and said

1448
00:52:11,430 --> 00:52:09,359
you know i'm special agent so and so i'm

1449
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:11,440
here to see the minnesota iceman which

1450
00:52:15,990 --> 00:52:13,440
is kind of surreal you know

1451
00:52:17,349 --> 00:52:16,000
um and hanson you know not every day he

1452
00:52:20,630 --> 00:52:17,359
gets a knock on the door i suppose from

1453
00:52:22,870 --> 00:52:20,640
the fbi and be perturbed and worried so

1454
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:22,880
he let the agent in and freely let him

1455
00:52:27,589 --> 00:52:25,599
look at it and the conclusion was well

1456
00:52:29,030 --> 00:52:27,599
you know i don't think it's a man

1457
00:52:31,190 --> 00:52:29,040
and it's up to you as you whether you

1458
00:52:33,510 --> 00:52:31,200
promote it as an ice man or a monster or

1459
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:33,520
whatever and you know the fbi agent went

1460
00:52:37,510 --> 00:52:35,839
away satisfied with the only thing he

1461
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:37,520
was concerned about that he wasn't a

1462
00:52:41,750 --> 00:52:39,680
human but hansen was one of these who

1463
00:52:44,309 --> 00:52:41,760
never missed an opportunity to promote

1464
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:44,319
the iceman so what he did he quickly got

1465
00:52:49,109 --> 00:52:46,880
a big board and some paint and painted a

1466
00:52:51,910 --> 00:52:49,119
huge board that said the minnesota

1467
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:51,920
iceman investigated by the fbi which he

1468
00:52:55,670 --> 00:52:54,319
put on display every time the creature

1469
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:55,680
was on display

1470
00:52:59,109 --> 00:52:58,079
so um you know it's a strange story

1471
00:53:01,670 --> 00:52:59,119
again of

1472
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:01,680
sort of quasi involvement on the part of

1473
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:03,280
the government for

1474
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:05,440
a very weird reason but possibly like an

1475
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:07,680
understandable reason as well

1476
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:09,920
yeah it's just a shame that they had to

1477
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:12,319
involve a dummy you know it's it's just

1478
00:53:16,150 --> 00:53:14,400
like it just hurts the credibility of

1479
00:53:17,910 --> 00:53:16,160
the case it makes it kind of skeptical

1480
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:17,920
i'm i'm sick of being

1481
00:53:21,670 --> 00:53:19,920
duped you know we get all these cases of

1482
00:53:23,589 --> 00:53:21,680
oh we found a bigfoot and then we test

1483
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,599
the dna and it's a possum mixed with a

1484
00:53:25,589 --> 00:53:24,720
raccoon

1485
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:25,599
you know

1486
00:53:29,190 --> 00:53:27,599
well that's why he said this is one of

1487
00:53:31,030 --> 00:53:29,200
the reasons why i think bigfoot's more

1488
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:31,040
paranormal because

1489
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:33,440
every time somebody talks about a body

1490
00:53:36,950 --> 00:53:34,800
there's always

1491
00:53:39,190 --> 00:53:36,960
an either or or a butter and if you know

1492
00:53:41,510 --> 00:53:39,200
there's always something that

1493
00:53:44,069 --> 00:53:41,520
suggests it could be fake you know or a

1494
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:44,079
model or whatever and yet we get lots of

1495
00:53:49,190 --> 00:53:46,720
credible sightings yet we never get a

1496
00:53:51,829 --> 00:53:49,200
credible report of a body and this leads

1497
00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:51,839
me to believe well this is why i believe

1498
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:53,520
that bigfoot is sort of

1499
00:53:56,790 --> 00:53:55,520
less flesh and blood and

1500
00:53:58,790 --> 00:53:56,800
based because

1501
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:58,800
the sheer number of reports we get

1502
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:01,200
citing reports we should get at least

1503
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:03,119
one body you know where we can say

1504
00:54:06,390 --> 00:54:05,359
definitively this is what it is but we

1505
00:54:08,309 --> 00:54:06,400
don't

1506
00:54:09,910 --> 00:54:08,319
you know if we only got a handful of

1507
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:09,920
citing reports and a handful of body

1508
00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:11,440
reports that's different but we get

1509
00:54:15,589 --> 00:54:12,720
thousands you know there are thousands

1510
00:54:16,790 --> 00:54:15,599
of sighting reports but no official body

1511
00:54:18,710 --> 00:54:16,800
so i think

1512
00:54:20,950 --> 00:54:18,720
this is a pointer to the probability

1513
00:54:22,829 --> 00:54:20,960
that you know in many of these cases we

1514
00:54:26,549 --> 00:54:22,839
are dealing with a paranormal type

1515
00:54:28,230 --> 00:54:26,559
creature um that maybe isn't flesh and

1516
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:28,240
blood in the way we even understand it

1517
00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:29,920
and possibly can't even be killed in the

1518
00:54:34,630 --> 00:54:32,240
way we understand it either

1519
00:54:36,790 --> 00:54:34,640
yeah i mean i have heard people give a

1520
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:36,800
lot of examples similar to this but one

1521
00:54:39,430 --> 00:54:38,079
i can remember is people say you know

1522
00:54:40,950 --> 00:54:39,440
i've been to a lot of cities and i've

1523
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:40,960
seen a lot of pigeons but have you ever

1524
00:54:46,950 --> 00:54:44,000
seen a baby pigeon you know clearly

1525
00:54:48,470 --> 00:54:46,960
they exist yeah they have to exist

1526
00:54:50,630 --> 00:54:48,480
well that that is true on the one hand

1527
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:50,640
but then again you know baby pigeons

1528
00:54:55,030 --> 00:54:53,280
probably like three inches long you know

1529
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:55,040
a little easier to hide

1530
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:56,960
yeah than an eight foot tall lumbering

1531
00:55:00,950 --> 00:54:58,640
eight you know running around just a

1532
00:55:03,510 --> 00:55:00,960
couple of you know an hour's drive from

1533
00:55:04,950 --> 00:55:03,520
seattle or whatever you know right if it

1534
00:55:06,950 --> 00:55:04,960
was like a regular ape you'd think there

1535
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:06,960
might be one case of it just wandering

1536
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:08,960
into a city you know a big city where

1537
00:55:12,069 --> 00:55:10,640
like hundreds of people see it and it

1538
00:55:14,150 --> 00:55:12,079
ends up dead

1539
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:14,160
well that's the thing

1540
00:55:18,230 --> 00:55:16,000
yeah it's like chimpanzees and gorillas

1541
00:55:19,589 --> 00:55:18,240
we know they could exist because they've

1542
00:55:20,630 --> 00:55:19,599
either got shot or they've made a

1543
00:55:22,710 --> 00:55:20,640
mistake

1544
00:55:26,710 --> 00:55:22,720
or they've died in the woods and been

1545
00:55:28,069 --> 00:55:26,720
found you know bigfoot eludes us 100 of

1546
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:28,079
the time there are no other animals

1547
00:55:31,190 --> 00:55:29,760
other than these cryptids

1548
00:55:33,109 --> 00:55:31,200
that do that you know it's like saying

1549
00:55:35,270 --> 00:55:33,119
most people never see a mountain lion

1550
00:55:36,870 --> 00:55:35,280
but people do and we have bodies of them

1551
00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:36,880
and we haven't been zoos

1552
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,040
but because they do elude us most of the

1553
00:55:44,069 --> 00:55:41,440
time but not all the time but bigfoot

1554
00:55:45,510 --> 00:55:44,079
does do it all the time you know

1555
00:55:47,270 --> 00:55:45,520
i mean well since this book is really

1556
00:55:49,030 --> 00:55:47,280
focused on government files of weird

1557
00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:49,040
creatures let me ask you if there's any

1558
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:51,040
cryptid legends out there that you have

1559
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,640
a personal interest but couldn't really

1560
00:55:56,309 --> 00:55:54,480
find any files on to fit into this

1561
00:55:59,190 --> 00:55:56,319
particular book

1562
00:56:01,270 --> 00:55:59,200
well yeah i mean i i thought about doing

1563
00:56:03,349 --> 00:56:01,280
a chapter on mothman because you know

1564
00:56:05,750 --> 00:56:03,359
mothman sightings in point pleasant west

1565
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:05,760
virginia in the 60s there was a lot of

1566
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:08,160
men in black activity going on at the

1567
00:56:12,470 --> 00:56:10,160
same time you know people

1568
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:12,480
people into you know this mib would turn

1569
00:56:16,789 --> 00:56:14,160
up and interview

1570
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:16,799
mothman witnesses asking what they saw

1571
00:56:21,030 --> 00:56:18,400
you know and um

1572
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:21,040
because there is at least some sort of

1573
00:56:25,190 --> 00:56:23,200
connection between some mib reports and

1574
00:56:27,589 --> 00:56:25,200
government i tried you know to find

1575
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:27,599
anything that might corroborate this and

1576
00:56:31,510 --> 00:56:29,440
you know if there was a mothman file

1577
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:31,520
somewhere now there might be but i

1578
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:34,000
couldn't find it so you know i didn't

1579
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:35,680
want to just go over all ground and just

1580
00:56:38,230 --> 00:56:36,720
you know pull

1581
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:38,240
a bunch of words from john keele's

1582
00:56:42,069 --> 00:56:39,920
mother and prophecies because i wanted

1583
00:56:43,910 --> 00:56:42,079
to add something new if there was but it

1584
00:56:46,309 --> 00:56:43,920
wouldn't surprise me if there isn't a

1585
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:46,319
mothman file somewhere when we know that

1586
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:48,480
there are bigfoot files you know

1587
00:56:54,069 --> 00:56:51,440
flatwoods files lotness files you name

1588
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:54,079
it files you know um i think probably

1589
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:56,160
there is a mothman file or file

1590
00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:58,400
somewhere if the problem is you know

1591
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:00,720
with the freedom of information act you

1592
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:02,720
can only get files declassified when you

1593
00:57:08,470 --> 00:57:05,200
actually can identify to a fair degree

1594
00:57:12,390 --> 00:57:08,480
what it is you want to be classifying

1595
00:57:16,150 --> 00:57:14,630
yeah that's funny um did you come across

1596
00:57:18,230 --> 00:57:16,160
any documents i mean you mentioned there

1597
00:57:20,069 --> 00:57:18,240
was some redaction in acoustic kitty but

1598
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:20,079
was there anything you found that seemed

1599
00:57:23,349 --> 00:57:21,520
like it could have been a better story

1600
00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:23,359
but it was just too heavily redacted or

1601
00:57:31,750 --> 00:57:29,589
yeah i mean actually i think one or two

1602
00:57:34,069 --> 00:57:31,760
of the ones that would fall into that

1603
00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:34,079
category were the ones that sort of

1604
00:57:38,470 --> 00:57:36,640
dealt more with real animals used under

1605
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:38,480
unusual circumstances like there was

1606
00:57:42,390 --> 00:57:40,160
this project in the second world war

1607
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:42,400
called project pigeon which i'm how did

1608
00:57:45,990 --> 00:57:44,720
you get a few files on but not much and

1609
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:46,000
that's actually some of them are still

1610
00:57:50,390 --> 00:57:48,240
classified it talks about how

1611
00:57:51,430 --> 00:57:50,400
the military was planning to use pigeons

1612
00:57:55,109 --> 00:57:51,440
to

1613
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:55,119
remotely sort of pilots um rockets and

1614
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:57,119
and bombs where they were being like a

1615
00:58:01,589 --> 00:57:59,839
remotely piloted aircraft and the pigeon

1616
00:58:03,430 --> 00:58:01,599
was about to be trained to press this

1617
00:58:05,109 --> 00:58:03,440
button which would you know send this

1618
00:58:06,470 --> 00:58:05,119
little remotely piloted aircraft any

1619
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:06,480
bombs attached in this particular

1620
00:58:11,030 --> 00:58:08,640
direction but the pigeons had like an

1621
00:58:12,470 --> 00:58:11,040
attention deficit disorder where they

1622
00:58:14,630 --> 00:58:12,480
just keep pecking the screen and the you

1623
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:14,640
know these little planes would just slam

1624
00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:17,200
into the ground or whatever and what's

1625
00:58:20,309 --> 00:58:18,720
you know it's kind of weird though that

1626
00:58:22,230 --> 00:58:20,319
some of those files are still withheld

1627
00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:22,240
you know it's like what on earth could

1628
00:58:27,829 --> 00:58:24,160
prompt that we'd hold in of a fire from

1629
00:58:30,789 --> 00:58:27,839
70 years ago on remotely controlled

1630
00:58:32,309 --> 00:58:30,799
pigeon aircraft you know

1631
00:58:34,829 --> 00:58:32,319
it's sort of bizarre that the files

1632
00:58:38,150 --> 00:58:34,839
would be withheld at all you know

1633
00:58:40,789 --> 00:58:38,160
yeah oh man well nick that pretty much

1634
00:58:42,390 --> 00:58:40,799
brings us to uh about that time to go

1635
00:58:44,309 --> 00:58:42,400
you know um you've always been a great

1636
00:58:46,230 --> 00:58:44,319
guest i think i've read about five year

1637
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:46,240
books now which is that's a lot for me i

1638
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:47,839
mean i haven't even read that many harry

1639
00:58:52,069 --> 00:58:50,160
potter books

1640
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:52,079
but i'm a big fan of the way you write

1641
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:53,920
you know there's no filler in your books

1642
00:58:58,069 --> 00:58:56,400
it's just story after story and

1643
00:59:00,630 --> 00:58:58,079
and that's the part that i really love

1644
00:59:03,510 --> 00:59:00,640
you know i still think about it

1645
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:03,520
oh yeah of course man thank you and i

1646
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:04,880
still even think about getting a few

1647
00:59:08,230 --> 00:59:06,480
friends together and taking a trip out

1648
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:08,240
to death valley or the grand canyon

1649
00:59:13,030 --> 00:59:09,920
looking for some great discovery because

1650
00:59:14,390 --> 00:59:13,040
i love that world's weirdest places book

1651
00:59:16,470 --> 00:59:14,400
well i mean death valley you know you

1652
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:16,480
got those sailing stones you know that

1653
00:59:21,270 --> 00:59:19,040
go across the landscape and there's the

1654
00:59:24,470 --> 00:59:21,280
stories of you know sort of supposed

1655
00:59:26,150 --> 00:59:24,480
like indiana jones types you know buried

1656
00:59:28,630 --> 00:59:26,160
temples and things under the ground you

1657
00:59:30,549 --> 00:59:28,640
know going back to atlantean times and

1658
00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:30,559
all sorts of weird stuff so that's all

1659
00:59:34,950 --> 00:59:33,200
in death valley exactly that book really

1660
00:59:37,589 --> 00:59:34,960
restored my faith that there might be

1661
00:59:39,030 --> 00:59:37,599
some uh discoveries left to make you

1662
00:59:41,109 --> 00:59:39,040
know i've always kind of feel like we're

1663
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:41,119
under such surveillance there's people

1664
00:59:44,390 --> 00:59:42,720
everywhere we're all so crowded that

1665
00:59:47,109 --> 00:59:44,400
there probably can't be any mysteries

1666
00:59:49,670 --> 00:59:47,119
but maybe just a you know uh 20 feet

1667
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:49,680
below us there might be something crazy

1668
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:51,280
yeah you never know

1669
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:52,720
well before we go man is there anything

1670
00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:53,760
you'd like to tell the people about

1671
00:59:57,109 --> 00:59:55,280
maybe your next topic or maybe your

1672
00:59:59,270 --> 00:59:57,119
website or something

1673
01:00:01,230 --> 00:59:59,280
yeah people can reach me at nick

1674
01:00:02,549 --> 01:00:01,240
redfern14

1675
01:00:05,030 --> 01:00:02,559
f-o-r-t-e-a-n nick

1676
01:00:07,270 --> 01:00:05,040
redfern14.blogspot.com

1677
01:00:09,349 --> 01:00:07,280
or facebook just type in nick redfern

1678
01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:09,359
and at my blog on the right hand side

1679
01:00:13,829 --> 01:00:11,760
have a list of upcoming

1680
01:00:15,990 --> 01:00:13,839
lectures and conferences and different

1681
01:00:17,910 --> 01:00:16,000
places i'll be speaking and whatever so

1682
01:00:19,030 --> 01:00:17,920
yeah we had scottie roberts on not long

1683
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:19,040
ago i mean you're going to be at the

1684
01:00:23,589 --> 01:00:21,520
paradigm symposium this year right

1685
01:00:25,109 --> 01:00:23,599
yeah i'd spoken last year that was a

1686
01:00:26,390 --> 01:00:25,119
really good event so i'm looking forward

1687
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:26,400
to this one again and that'll be in

1688
01:00:31,270 --> 01:00:29,599
minneapolis in uh in october

1689
01:00:32,870 --> 01:00:31,280
excellent man well hopefully some people

1690
01:00:34,549 --> 01:00:32,880
can make it out to that you know it's

1691
01:00:36,309 --> 01:00:34,559
always an honor and a pleasure and keep

1692
01:00:38,950 --> 01:00:36,319
doing what you do and may the freedom of

1693
01:00:40,829 --> 01:00:38,960
information act always be your guide

1694
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:40,839
all right well thanks a lot greg thank

1695
01:00:45,510 --> 01:00:43,680
you there we go people nick redfearn

1696
01:00:47,270 --> 01:00:45,520
always a pleasure to talk to that guy

1697
01:00:49,349 --> 01:00:47,280
thanks for all the love and support for

1698
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:49,359
thc out there it's always very

1699
01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:51,440
motivating please share the show as much

1700
01:00:55,910 --> 01:00:53,040
as you can spread it like the plague

1701
01:00:57,510 --> 01:00:55,920
people review thc on itunes if you think

1702
01:00:59,829 --> 01:00:57,520
about it and i'll keep bringing you